Transcript 0:00 [whooshing] Are you sick of artificial cocktails? Then check out Teddy Tears. Refreshing-tasting, all natural canned cocktails made with six ingredients and different spirits. Gin, bourbon, and vodka. 0:13 Use code SHUTUPANDTEDDY at drinkteddytears.com for a 10% discount off every four-pack. [whooshing] Have you cooked for your sister? Yes. Yeah. What does she think? I mean, my family have a mixed [laughs] 0:29 opinion about my cooking. Like, my family is super critical. [laughs] Even though I'm kind of like a chef here, and they don't care. They say whatever. [laughs] [upbeat music] I did it. 0:46 Hi, welcome to Shut Up and Eat, the podcast about restaurants, chefs, cooking, and all the food we're obsessed with. I'm Cathy Erway. And I'm Matt Gross. We're both New Yorkers who love to cook, eat, travel, and write. 1:00 This week we're talking to the chef at Banh Mi N.M., the restaurant that's pushing the envelope for Vietnamese food in New York City. 1:06 Be sure to subscribe to this podcast and sign up for our weekly Shut Up and Eat newsletter, where you'll find more insights on the world of restaurants, chefs, and food. And now, Banh Mi N.M. You know my love is sweet. 1:21 Okay, so Banh Mi N.M. in the East Village has been on my list of places to go to. It's... E- ever since it opened last year in 2025, it has just been a really hard ticket to get into. It's just, you know, the... 1:34 I've been s- I've seen the lines down the street of people waiting patiently for a seat. And, um, it's been on all these best of lists, got rave critical reviews. So I just never made it in. 1:48 Um, but I know you did recently. How was it? It is excellent. It is worth the wait. You should brave those lines, and you should get in the door because the food is really excellent. 1:58 Um, they are doing some of the most serious Vietnamese cooking in the city, which is not something that one could've said about much of Vietnamese restaurants in New York City until about 10 years ago when, um, a whole crop of new Vietnamese places started popping up, including, what, five, six years ago was, uh, the Banh Mi N.M. 2:20 chef's, uh, first full-on restaurant c- just called Banh on the Upper West Side. Okay. So I did go to this one. Mm-hmm. And there was a line for lunch on a Friday 'cause they're actually, just like Banh Mi N.M. 2:32 in East Village, its sister restaurant, they're only open, um, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday for lunch, and then it's dinner only throughout most of the week. 2:40 So, um, and I got there at, like, 12:15, and there was still a pretty good line, and this is, like, 106th Street and Amsterdam. You know, not as well trafficked as- Mm... 2:50 uh, uh, downtown, like, you know, Village and so forth. So, uh, yeah, uh, yeah, I went, and I was pretty blown away. There's hungry people everywhere. I mean, you gotta- I mean, I... 3:02 First of all, you could give me an average or even a bad bowl of pho, and I will love it. Like, it [laughs] doesn't take much for me to love pho. 3:11 But, um, I tried their amazing crab meatball pho with, like, tomato broth and, like, tofu puffs. Mm-hmm. And I'd never seen that before, ever. Um, it was so good. So that's, that's not pho. That is, uh... 3:25 Maybe they're calling it pho, but it- Noodle soup. They did- It sounds like a- Okay... a bun rieu. Bun rieu- Okay... is what that is called. The... 3:31 Vietnam has so many noodle soups that you just can't even count them, and there's new ones getting invented all the time, which is, uh, one of the great things about the Banh and Banh Mi N.M., uh, empire that they're building is they are bringing lots of stuff that is pretty rarely seen in New York, uh, you know, to a big audience, and doing it at, at such a high level. 3:54 I'm so here for it. Yeah. Yeah. The banh mi is what everyone talks about, right? Their wonderful house-made pork pate. Um, the house-made bread. It was excellent. The, the bread is- I'd never had anything like that... 4:08 so good. I mean, they are doing it exactly right. Um, it is light and flaky, crispy, and, uh, soaks up sauce and provides a good, uh, good base for pate and all the toppings. It's just... The bread makes the sandwich. 4:26 Anybody can do fillings, right? You know? Yeah. Some pate, it's easy to do- Well- Maybe not easy, but- The fillings were very good, too. They are. I mean, they were a cut above 'cause, you know, we, we became a... 4:37 I, I became accustomed to very similar, you know, s- you know, formulas and, you know, I love Hanko's. I love, I love- Mm... other banh mi throughout the city as well. Um, it, it doesn't take me much... 4:51 Again, it [laughs] doesn't take much for me to love a banh mi sandwich. Yeah. But, uh, I feel like that's pretty formulaic, and these were ingredients that were definitely made with a lot of love. 5:00 They were h- house made. I mean, that, uh, you just- Yeah... can't really beat that. And one of the great ways that they break the formula there is, uh, they have one, uh, banh mi 5:09 order that you can do, the banh mi Hai Phong, which is from, uh, sort of coastal northern Vietnam. They're smaller, more sort of torpedo-like breads, and it just has their delicious pate and pork floss. Mm. 5:27 And, um, uh, it's not... That's something that's a style of, of sandwich that's relatively unknown in Vietnam. I mean, it- Wow... if, if you lived in Saigon, this is not a kind of sandwich you would encounter often. 5:41 But it's a just a excellent snack-sized- Yeah... rich, crispy, um, and rare kind of thing to find at a restaurant in New York, let alone, you know... 5:52 You'd be lucky to find it maybe in a restaurant in Hanoi, uh, let alone a restaurant in the East Village or the Upper West Side. That's so cool. Yeah, I mean, I, I, I don't... 6:02 I haven't traveled, you know, much in, in Vietnam, so- Mm... uh, I just... But pork floss is one of those things you see a, in a lot in, um- [laughs]... Taiwanese, like, sandwiches and rice rolls- Totally... 6:14 and, yeah, fan tuan. And I, I grew up eating it in sandwiches and white, with white bread as... Actually [laughs] I, I always refer to it... I, I know it's called pork floss. In Chinese called, uh, rou song. Rou song. 6:24 But I just, I always call it hairy pork It's 'cause it's hairy pork Hairy pork, yeah It looks hairy. It looks like hair, but it's made of pork. Floss. Hair. See, I guess that's the sort of- [laughs]... 6:34 trans- [laughs] All right. Similar translation there 6:38 So, uh, just to, to follow on this, uh, idea of, like, rare Vietnamese foods, o- one of the neat things that they're doing, that Chef, uh, Nguyen Thanh is doing at these restaurants is she's really gathering, uh, dishes from all over Vietnam. 6:54 Vietnam is, uh, both a big country and a small country. It's very long, lots of different regions. Mm. 7:02 So people here may be familiar with some basic differences between Hanoi in the north and Ho Chi Minh City, the former Saigon, in the south. Southern food tends to be more herbs, more sugar, more accoutrement. Okay. 7:16 Northern food tends to be a little more spare. Like, a northern, uh, Hanoi-style pho is gonna have a very beefy oomph to it. Mm-hmm. Uh- So phos? Yeah, so pho- Okay... in the north is gonna be more beefy- Mm... 7:32 uh, fewer herbs, less sugar, less spices. In the south, you're gonna have more sugar, more spices, more herbs in your pho. But that's just two regions of Vietnam. 7:42 You have central Vietnam, uh, typified by the former imperial capital of Hue. Uh, you have the Mekong Delta, where things get even herbier and sweeter. You have a bunch of, uh, you know, lots of other regions as well. 7:58 And you have the Central Highlands, which is the mountainous region in the center of Vietnam, which is where Chef, uh, Nguyen Thanh is from. So- Okay... 8:06 she has, uh, she ate as a child, uh, growing up in an open air marketplace in the Central Highlands. 8:14 Her family moved down to the coast, and she's traveled all over Vietnam, so she has spent a lot, enormous amount of time and energy coming to understand the different ways that all these different foods are made in her home country, and is trying to, the best she can, represent 8:32 the types of food and the ways people eat, uh, all over- Hmm... and bringing that into one place in... Well, or into two places. 8:40 She's doing that so well, because you go to places, sometimes, you know, folks are hesitant when they're so accustomed to this formulaic, like, menu, right, of, of what they think Vietnamese food consists of. 8:53 And they're bringing all these new dishes to a lot of people who have never tried them or heard of them before, and it's selling like hotcakes. People are lining up for it. [laughs] So it's kind of cool to see that. 9:03 I like the hotcakes thing, because one of the most impressive things that she does at Banh An Nam is this dish called, uh, banh uot tron, which is, it's like a tier. 9:14 It's like a multi-tiered thing, and then each tier is a little plate with a sort of flat steamed rice roll with a little bit of, like, herbs and maybe mushrooms in it. And then, like, seven other little platters of, uh, 9:29 green mango, and, uh, grilled pork jowl, and sour pork sausage, and herbs, and all these different things. And y- That sounds terrible. [laughs] I'm just kidding. It's wonderful. I would eat that so quickly. 9:43 And so the idea is you take one of these little plates, and you, uh, cover the rice roll with all your preferred accoutrement, and then you- Mm-hmm... wrap it up, and you dunk it in one of two sauces. 9:54 There's a sort of, uh, more pure, like, uh, nuoc cham, which is like fish sauce, lime juice, sugar, and then one that's more like- Yum... fermented fish sauce, and more sort of punchy and fermenty. 10:04 And so you roll it up in these little packets- Sounds fun... and dip it, and I'd never seen anything like this. I think, uh, you know, I'm, I'm... 10:12 I actually can't remember whether this was her own invention or her adaptation of things that she'd eaten- Hmm... or if this is a thing, you know, from the Central Highlands that she'd grown up with. 10:21 But, I mean, this is, this is a place of discovery, where she's doing- Game changer, yeah... all these kind of cool things. Um- So cool. Yeah. She's... 10:29 Uh, uh, there was a, another wonderful dish that she does of grilled scallops with a salted egg yolk sauce, which, uh, I think she explained to me that that's not really a thing in Vietnam. 10:42 Yes, you can get grilled scallops- Ah... lots of places. Right. And yes, uh, salted egg yolk is a kinda trendy ingredient, and, you know, lots of sauces and in, and dishes are made with that. 10:53 But sort of putting those two things together- Hmm... served in a scallop shell with really sweet, perfectly grilled scallops, uh, it's sort of taking all of her knowledge of- Right... 11:03 all these different cooking traditions, uh, in Vietnam, and then bringing th- them to New York and creating something new and fresh- Amazing... for everybody. Yeah. Um- Uh, I mean, as long as it's delicious, you know? 11:16 Yeah. It sounds amazing. I- Um, so I know you got to sit down with Chef Nguyen Thanh, so I can't wait to hear your interview with her. She is wonderful, hardworking, and an incredible talent. 11:29 And so let's go to my conversation with Chef Nguyen Thanh of Banh and Banh An Nam. Hey, listeners. If you liked this episode and want even more Shut Up and Eat, you should subscribe to our newsletter. 11:44 Each week, Kathy and I provide deeper insight on our podcast interviews, analyze restaurant culture, and write about our favorite new food finds, including Google Maps of everywhere from NYC to Montreal to Tokyo. 11:57 Sign up at shutupandeat.com. That's Shut Up and Eat, not Shut Up and Eat. I, I did it. I, I- Ah, this is where we always like to start. What is your first memory of cooking? 12:13 I think my first memory of cooking was, um, when I was a little kid, because I grew up in an open market. It's called cho in Vietnamese. 12:25 I wasn't really, like, cooking, but I was helping You know, my mom around because she have a store inside an open market. Mm-hmm. 12:33 Um, and then, you know, it's just like part of my childhood to see, like, all different vendors, like, early in the morning, they brought the fresh ingredient over, and then they start cooking. 12:42 All the smells, you know, all the sound- Mm-hmm... and, you know, all the flavor. It just really-- All of my cooking based on that period of time. What, what were you cooking? 12:53 What's your first memory of making something? I think it, um, the very first dish that I helped my mom, i- it's not really cooking, but I helped my mom grill rice cracker- Oh... over charcoal. 13:07 Because we're from Central Vietnam, so rice, rice cracker, banh trang, is, like, super popular over there. 13:13 Like, all the family have banh trang at home, and it's very common for us to, like, eat, like, grilled cracker, banh trang, you know, like, to dip with, you know, fish sauce, really good quality of fish sauce. Yeah. 13:25 It's that simple, but it just, like, whenever I think about it, it just, like, really warm my heart. Oh. Is there technique involved in grilling banh trang? 13:34 I think the technique-- So my family in Central Vietnam actually do banh trang from scratch. That's why, you know, when we open Banh An Em, it's really important to bring banh cuon. The technique is, is the same. 13:50 Um, it just banh trang, you, you do, you know, like, the layer is a little bit thicker, and banh cuon is a lot more delicate. 13:58 So you pour the batter, rice batter on top of a cloth, and you, you use a flat spoon to even everything out, so the layer is very thin. So the technique for banh cuon is a lot harder. 14:11 Um, but you know, we have been doing this for so long. I did it when I was a little kid. Hmm. Um, so doing banh, banh cuon and banh trang from scratch is really hard. It need technique. 14:23 Um, I mean, grilling it, it's a lot easier, but you had to get used to it. You, you had to learn how to control the fire, like the charcoal. 14:32 Like, you can't really put it, like, so close to the fire because it's gonna burn, and it doesn't really cook the rice cracker. So it's like, you know, you kind of, like, dance with the f-fire, and, you know. 14:43 Especially, like, during the cold days in, you know, Central Highland, it's just so nice to, like, grill rice cracker, you know, it's like next to the charcoal. [chuckles] I'm trying to imagine you as a little kid. Yes. 14:54 Uh- But like I'm-- I was so curious. [both laugh] Yeah. Were you comfortable with the fire? I mean, one time I burn my hair, so [both laugh] yeah. Yeah. I think that, that seems normal. I mean- Yeah... 15:09 little kids burn their own hair. They, they cut their own bangs. Yeah, yeah. There's all kinds of- Yeah, but it's-... marital, marital accidents... all fun memory. Yeah. [laughs] So you grew up in the Central Highlands. 15:23 I think, I feel like here in the US and in New York, people are getting a sense of, okay, what is Southern Vietnamese food and what is Northern Vietnamese food, and maybe a little bit of, like, what is Hue food? 15:36 But what is the cuisine of the Central Highlands like? How is that different from the sort of sweet, herby stuff we know from the south or the more austere, meaty dishes from the north? 15:50 So the-- One of the wonderful thing about Vietnamese cuisine, it's very regional. You know, as you described, the food from the north is different from the south, the central, and even Central Highland. 16:02 In Central Highland, we actually work with a lot of wild ingredients. Hmm. Because there's, um, it's called E De minority group. Um, so I grew up with E De people. 16:16 I, you know, went to class, and my classmate are E De people. So we use a lot of wild ingredient. We use, like, all the herbs. 16:26 Um, we hand pound it, and the, the technique that we cook, we, we cook with a lot of, like, nat- in nature. 16:33 Yeah, when I was a little kid, there wa-wasn't gas, there wasn't electricity, so I went to the forest, harvest the ingredient, you know, and gather all the dry wood branch to bring it home and start the fire myself. 16:52 Yeah. So it-- I think I'm glad that I was born during that period of time of Vietnam. You know, I think younger generation now, they, they don't- Mm-hmm... they, they don't have that kind of experience anymore. 17:07 Um, so I always really appreciate, you know? Yeah. That's incredible. So what, what else can you say about the, the food of that- So-... of that time and that area? Yeah. 17:15 For example, one of the dish that is really well-known in my hometown is com lam. So we harvest the bamboo tube. 17:24 You know, we soak the rice, put the rice inside the bamboo tube, and use the coconut, um, coconut, uh, juice, pour it inside, and use banana leaf to, like, just, like, cover it and grill it over fire or charcoal. 17:41 And the chicken itself is also wild chicken. Yeah, we butterfly it and also grill it over charcoal. Yeah. So it, um-- We use a lot of herbs. 17:53 But again, in Central Highland, we use a lot of, you know, like, talking about Vietnamese cuisine, we have all different kind of herbs, you know, rau ram, basil, you know, kinh gioi, um, all different kind. 18:04 But in, in Central Highland, we go to the forest to harvest wild herbs, you know, to bring it over and, you know, just like... So I think that's a very unique things about, you know, Central Highland dishes. 18:20 Um, I mean, it sounds delicious. I would really [chuckles] like some, some bamboo grilled rice and some- Yeah... and that, that chicken. Is there a lot of, uh, hunting and, and wild animals- Yes, absolutely... 18:31 and wild meat? Like, what, what do people hunt out there? I think we, people hunt like pig, you know, a lot like chickens, you know. It's like all different kind of wild animal. 18:42 Yeah, and I- and we actually raise animal, like in the gardens, and we have the gardens. It's like really big garden that they can run free. So, you know, it's like, it's, it's very... 18:54 I just feel like it's, it's such a ecosystem that back in the day we already kind of live, you know? Mm-hmm. 19:00 It's like my family's always had pig, you know, in the backyard, chicken in the backyard and, you know, the chicken lay eggs. 19:08 We go to the back to collect the eggs and, you know, it's like with eggs, so normally my mom, normally she always like wake up very early to collect eggs. 19:18 So she use like egg yolk and break it and drop it inside the soy milk and whisk it for us to drink before we go to school. So I think the quality of eggs was also very different. Yeah. 19:32 And so you didn't have that much seafood? We have seafood from the lake, but not like from the ocean. So but Central Highland is actually only a couple hour away from Nha Trang. Oh, okay. 19:47 So we actually ship all the seafood from Nha Trang to Buôn Ma Thuột. So it's not far. It's not so far. So we still have, you know, also, that's why I really lo- That's something that I really love about my hometown. 19:58 Like, we have all great, you know, it's like ingredient from the mountains and then, you know, we also get like super fresh seafood from Nha Trang. Yeah. 20:10 So y- you have all these wonderful strong memories of, of, of eating and cooking as a kid. Did you set out to become a cook? No. [laughs] What, what was- [laughs] I, funny enough that I, I really hated cooking. 20:24 I love eating, but I hate, I hated cooking because, you know, when I was a little kid, like my mom only wanted me to be like good at, you know, like school. Mm-hmm. So I spent all my time just like studying. 20:38 But again, I, I just feel like I was super lucky to grew up in Buôn Ma Thuột, you know? So I, I- Yeah... I get to experience like so many different kind of like dishes. Um, and one of the 20:50 really, one of the thing that I also really appreciate is because Central Highland, 20:57 Buôn Ma Thuột it's like, you know, back in the day, go back to the history, it's called Ɣân tới mới, um, which is, you know, after Vietnam War. 21:07 You know, it's like people, the government tried to like bring people to like new area- Mm... to develop, you know, that area. 21:15 So in my hometown we have people from the north, people from like different part of central, people from the south, and they all bring their own cuisine to my hometown. 21:24 That's why when I was a little kid, I e- experienced like all different kind of like, you know, different part of Vietnam, like food, in term of food. Yeah. So what were you studying instead of cooking? 21:36 What was your, what was your, what did you think or what did your parents think you were going to be? 21:40 I mean, I have all different kind of dream, [laughs] but I, I wanted to be, you know, at first I wanted to be a doctor. 21:49 Yeah, and then later on when I was older, I wanted to, you know, just like be a tour guide because I love Vietnam. I love travel across Vietnam and learn different things. 22:01 Um, I actually apply for school for college just because I, uh, my family was poor, you know? 22:09 So that's the only way for me to get to school and through school I could, you know, through school program I could travel across Vietnam and we did that, you know? And it was such a fun memory with my classmate. 22:23 We were young. We have no ideas, you know? It's like we're just like really naively and explore, curious to explore everything. So we took a bus, all class, like very big class. 22:37 We took different bus and travel across Vietnam, learn about different culture, you know, and it's, it, it's such a, it make a huge impact for me now as a chef when I think about it because I feel like if you don't understand the culture deep enough, right, then you, 23:00 I just feel you can't really fully create and fully represent Vietnamese food. Because I feel like there's a thin line between being creative and being lost in the process of creativity. 23:17 B- because I see some chef that I feel like they wanna push the boundary too far to the point that it's not really Vietnamese anymore. Um, which is fine, you know? 23:29 Um, but I, to me, because I have the opportunity to v- uh, to experience Vietnamese food in a ways that I just feel like it's so beautiful and there's so many people that don't know about Vietnamese food in that way yet, so it's become my passion that, you know, it's like I want to create a place that people can come in and experience and, you know, just like have such a great time. 23:55 Just like in Vietnam- Mm... we always welcome new people to come to our home, to welcome to like any places, to welcome people and just share the food. 24:05 The very first thing you hear all the time in Vietnam, "Have you eaten yet?" Mm. "Ăn cơm chưa?" You know, it's like, so we, we just want to create a space for people to come in and enjoy. All right. Uh, 24:19 h- how did you decide to start cooking? You were gonna be a doctor and then you decided at some point or, or it was decided for you that you were gonna start cooking Vietnamese food. 24:32 How did that- Yeah, so I, um, when I was in college, I didn't go to medical school. I, I instead of go to the hospitality, um- I, I went to the school for hospitality management. Yeah. 24:45 So I study, you know, tourism, study about restaurant management, resort, you know. Um, so I... Before I graduate from school, I need to apply for internship, so I apply for internship in America. So I, I apply it. 25:01 I, um, I pass the interview and I came to America. And when I came to America, I wasn't really interested in cooking yet, you know? But when I was in America, I, I was lost. 25:15 I kind of, you know, run away from my family a little bit, uh, and I tried to figure out who, who I was, you know? So I'm... 25:23 What I missed the most when I was, you know, here, when I was in America, I feel like I missed, like, my mom cookings. So I... 25:35 All those memory with my mom, al- although my memory with when I grew up in Tra, really brought me to the kitchen. And the kitchen was the only safe place for me, 25:48 um, to really, like, cope with whatever happened, you know, when I was younger. Um, so I think that's how I started to cook. And I think it was the right... 25:59 I think it's my destiny to be here and, you know, to really learn about myself, about my root, and about my country, my people through cooking. 26:12 Um, and it somehow really save me and also heal me, and it's also helped me to connect people. I don't think I'm a good communicator. You know, I, I don't think I'm really good at... I'm a very introvert person. 26:31 So through cooking, I could share my thought, could share a part of myself, a part of my heart, a part of my culture to people. 26:41 Was there a dish that you figured out how to make for yourself that, the first one that helped you feel less lost? 26:50 Um, I think it, it's always bring back to my memory with my mom in the kitchen, and there's a dish that she always make for me. It's not ca kho, which is a fish stew, but I love, like, jerky. 27:03 So she normally she would save up money and go really get a nice piece of tuna, and then she, like, marinate it and then pan-fried it. Huh. And then she use hand to tears it. So basically, it's like fish jerky. 27:17 We didn't really have a name, but I really enjoy eating it. So I just... She make fish jerky, and she put it on... I love rice, so I always appreciate that my mom cook perfect rice. 27:30 Yeah, so I just need a bowl of rice, fish jerky, and a little bit, like, really good quality of fish sauce. So that's something that really remind me. I don't put it on the... It's a very personal dish for me. 27:42 I don't think people eat that dish even in Vietnam, but it just, like, some dishes that really... I, I still make that dish at home. That sounds great. What's, what's the texture of the jerky? 27:52 Is it little thin strips, or is it more like a, a rosonge, like a hairy, fuzzy pork? It more like hairy fuzzy. So it's- Yeah. Yeah, that's... Oh, love that. Yeah, yeah. And what does it get marinated in? 28:04 So my mom normally marinate with, um... It's, like, just, like, very simple ingredients, like sugar, you know, soy sauce, a little bit fish sauce, garlic- Mm. -and, uh, like, minced, uh, shallot. Yeah. Pepper. Yeah. 28:18 That sounds great. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. I'm hungry for that. So that's what you made for yourself. What was the dish that got you cooking for other people as a, as a pro? 28:30 We took over a restaurant in the Bronx, like, years ago when we had no idea what we was doing. I had no idea what I wanted to cook. I was a, such a young cook. 28:42 Um, from that restaurant, we opened a second location during pandemic. Mm. Yeah. A lot people tell us, you know, it's like, "Don't open the restaurant during that time." Um, but we, we believe in ourself. Yeah. 28:56 And one dish that it's always... Like, it looks so simple, but for some reason, like, we couldn't find it in New York. It's, it's banh cuon that I mentioned earlier. It's Chi- Do you wanna explain what banh cuon is? 29:11 Yeah. So the banh cuon is a steamed rice roll. So it's very different from the steamed rice roll, like Chinese steamed rice roll. Um, banh cuon for Vietnamese, uh, people, so it's, it more like a rice paste. 29:26 So in Vietnam, you soak the rice, and you can o- you cannot use, like, any type of rice. It's a very specific type of rice grain. 29:35 So you soak it overnight, grind it into a paste with water, and then, you know, you pour the batter on top of a piece of cloth and use a thin, uh, ladle to, like, spread the, the batter out, and you use a very thin, like, bamboo stick to, like, take it. 29:57 Yeah. So that's a dish that, you know, I really wanna bring it to New York for Banh Uptown location. I try it so many time. I fail because, you know, the rice flour, the rice... Uh, my family use rice grain, 30:14 and I can't really find that kind of rice grain here in America. It's a very specific type of rice grain. So I, I use rice flour instead, 30:24 and then I also develop my own technique through fermentation to achieve the same flavor and texture. Mm. Yeah, so it take me a really long time to figure it out. 30:35 Um, and it's also a dish called banh, banh cuon heo quay, also the steamed rice roll. Yeah, so the roasted pork. Heo quay is the, uh- Yeah, the roasted pork... roasted pig. Yeah. Yeah. So 30:48 it took me for so long, like- I, it took me a couple months, and I R and D in my such a small kitchen in New York. Uh, we didn't really have money. Um, it took me... It's like, and I R and D. 31:01 When I do something, I'm, like, super intense. I R and D all day, all night. And for a couple months, I still couldn't figure it out. 31:10 And when we, before we opened, grand opening for the Uptown location, I still couldn't figure it out. I almost cry in the kitchen, literally almost cry in the kitchen. 31:21 And luckily, by magic, like right before we opened, the skin was puff. Yeah, so it- it just like, I was so panic and, you know, it's like also relief, like finally we- we could figure out the recipe. So I love this. 31:36 You- you started cooking professionally by opening, by buying a restaurant, taking over a restaurant. That was the beginning of cooking- Yeah... for other people. Yeah. Uh, what year was that? What was that? 31:46 That was, uh, Cam Tam Ninh Kieu. I, I think it, yeah, Cam Tam Ninh Kieu. It was, uh, at the end of 2017, early 2018. Okay. Yeah. So, um, eight, nine years. Yeah. What have you seen change about- Vietnamese... 32:01 the Vietnamese food world in New York in that time? Oh my God, it changed so much. 32:07 Um, I think back in the day when we, you know, like nine years ago, when we took over Cam Tam Ninh Kieu, there- there was not so many, you know, Vietnamese restaurant in the city. 32:20 If they were, most of the restaurant was, you know, like serving very classic dishes like bun, you know, pho and banh mi. Yeah. And the banh mi, it wasn't just like the banh mi that we normally got in Vietnam either. 32:34 Over the years, I just feel like there's a lot, like great chef out there really push the boundary and really... 32:43 And I, I feel like they also proud of what they're doing, so they represent it in a way that it just really, uh, I just so excited and so, you know. 32:53 It's like the Vietnamese community is now restaurants, chef- Have you seen h- how diners have changed? I mean, do the people come in- Absolutely... expecting the same old things, or do they know, 33:08 you know, what banh cun is? The same old thing is not that a bad thing. You know, it's like, it's al- always like a comfort dishes, but how to cook that dish with different approach, you know? 33:21 It's like, for example, pho, right? Let's talk about pho, how to make really good quality, you know, of bone broth. Like, for example, at, in our restaurant, we don't use sugar, rock sugar- Hmm... in the pho at all. 33:36 So the sweetness from the bones, you know, it just like bring out all the flavor. So we, we don't just use any type of bone cut. 33:45 We, we combine different kind of bone cuts to, you know, kind of create the flavor that we want. We use bone marrow, neck bones, you know. It's like all different cuts. Yeah. 33:57 Do you have, like, a perfect ratio of different bones? Yeah. 34:01 So we test out, like, different ratio of bones before, and we finally, you know, figured out how much bone marrow we want, how much, like, mixed bone we want, how much neck bone we want. Yeah. Is it, is it a secret? 34:13 Is the ratio a secret? Yes. [laughs] Okay. Oh, darn. Yeah. All right. I'll go have to, I'll have to R and D myself at home. Yeah, but, but anyway, go back to your question. 34:20 Good old thing, it's- it's always good and comforting. Yeah. And I love pho, you know. When we talk about the concept for Banh An Em, right? We would say, you know, "What people missing the most?" Hmm. 34:35 And I asked my staff, because most of my staff are Vietnamese, and I- surprisingly, they say they miss banh mi the most. But banh mi is everywhere, you know, in America. 34:46 You know, it's like, like, it- it's just literally everywhere. And I asked them why they miss banh mi the most, and they would say the fluffy bread, you know. 34:57 That's something that they miss the most, and I was like, "Okay, that's make sense," because I just feel I didn't even think about it because to me, banh mi is everywhere. 35:06 It's like, you know, it's like, why you even want to open another banh mi shop? Yeah, but the bread is usually so heavy here. Yes. Yeah. I mean, not here, but in- Yeah. Yeah... 35:16 in most of the banh mi places, it's just- Yeah... it feels like pr- using French bread and pretending that it's Vietnamese banh mi. Yeah. Yeah. S- so you had to redo that. You had to reinvent. Yeah. 35:30 I just, I don't think I really reinvent anything, to be honest. I just feel like I love banh mi and I want people to experience, you know, the banh mi that I experienced in Vietnam. It doesn't say that I... 35:44 It doesn't mean that, it doesn't mean that I, I don't really like... I spent over two years to really, you know. So I went to France, I went to Copenhagen, Japan- Hmm... 35:58 and went back to Vietnam multiple time to learn from different bakers. Um, and there's, there's some recipe in Vietnam I learned, um, but I didn't really like it that much. Hmm. So when I 36:12 came back to New York, um, I started to, like, R and D and, you know, like, create the version of banh mi that I like. Yeah. What makes banh mi so light and crispy? What is it? It's a mix of flours? 36:29 What's the, what's the, the key there? I heard a lot of people, they say that they mix, um, rice flour- Hmm... in the flour, but all the baker, like professional bakers in Vietnam that I learn from them, 36:48 they never use rice flour. So- So all just wheat flour? All wheat flour, but we mix different type of wheat flour. Yeah, so between hard wheat and soft wheat to create the flavor that we want. Yeah. 37:03 But I think the, the, the key thing for Vietnamese banh mi is, like, it's very airy So the process of whisking the dough is super important, yeah, to build, like, very strong gluten structure. 37:17 And if you don't know how to whisk the, the, the dough, then you can't really make, you know? Yeah. So it's a physical process. That's the- Yeah... the key. 37:26 W- I, I think I read that you had done a sort of end-to-end tour of Vietnam to explore different banh mi. Yes. Was there any version of the sandwich that surprised you, that you didn't know it existed? 37:40 I didn't really know banh mi pate Hai Phong before- Mm... because the pate that I grew up with eating is completely different type of pate from the north. 37:50 Um, so it- it's really surprising for me to have, like, warm pate, but it's so flavorful. So that's why I was like, "I have to make that pate." Mm. Yeah. 38:02 So the pate we have here, we, we make all the ingredient in-house from the b- uh, bread or to the hot sauce to, you know, it's like all the single ingredient inside the banh mi we make ourself. Um, 38:16 but I think the star of the banh mi, particularly banh mi OG, is the pate that we make. Mm. We make huge batch of pate, it's like couple times a week. That stuff is good. That's- Yeah... 38:27 like, first time I came here, I got the, uh- OG... banh mi pate Hai Phong, uh- Yeah... to go. That was like, "I need to take this home with me." Yeah, yeah. Um, it's such a good like, just a snacky- A very simple-... 38:39 light kind of thing... yeah. And it reminded me that, uh, when, when I lived in Vietnam a long, long, long time ago, banh mi wasn't such a big deal there. It was everywhere. It was a snack. You could get it. 38:52 It, they, the, they weren't overstuffed. But then when you eat them, when I came back to America and started getting them here, they were these big monster things, especially, like, out in California- Mm-hmm... 39:05 stuffed with everything. And, um, I'm wondering d- has that more sort of American overstuffed approach started to filter back to Vietnam? It- Um- Is there a feedback between 39:20 how Viet ghio here cook and eat, and how trends evolve and develop back in Vietnam? I think in Vietnam, like, I will give you an example of Banh Mi Huynh Hoa, right? 39:33 Banh Mi Huynh Hoa, so they really overstuff everything. Mm. And that's their signature. And a lot of Vietnamese people love it. It mostly for tourists, but still, there's still, 39:46 uh, you know, good amount of people really enjoy Banh Mi Huynh Hoa and other different type of banh mi. I even, like, went to central Vietnam, Hội An, you know. Mm-hmm. It's like, there's such a great banh mi spot. 39:58 Sorry, I don't remember the name. I, I'm really [laughs] bad at remember the name. [laughs] But they also stuff their banh mi, but it's so flavorful, and it was packed of locals. 40:07 So I think, like, back in the day, you know, say banh mi is such a cheap snack, and if you stuff so much, then you can't really charge. 40:16 And mostly for, you know, it's like for, like, workers, you know, to, like, eat banh mi. Or even people, like, before they grab something really light before work. 40:25 Um, so if you really overstuff it, then, you know, you can't really, like, charge more money, and people cannot afford it. Mm. But nowadays, I, I just feel like there's different trend. 40:37 I'm not sure I, I answer your question, but I just feel like the food that we... The food Amer- Vietnamese American food here and Vietnamese food in Vietnam for sure is different. Mm. Yeah. 40:50 But Vietnamese food in Vietnam, a lot of people question about how authentic Vietnamese food, you know, in America is, right? Some people would say, "Oh my God, it's not authentic." But what authentic really means. Mm. 41:05 Right? Because Vietnamese, I just feel like I study history, I study culture, Vietnamese culture, and I just feel like our food is always evolving. Mm. We honor, that's also the spirit, you know? 41:19 It's like, like our philosophy, you know, when we approach, the way that I approach Vietnamese cooking here is we honor tradition, but it doesn't stop us from being creative. Can you... 41:33 Is there a dish, is there a specific dish where you feel like you can point to where it, it's the line between the authentic traditional and the Nhu Tom version? Okay. What, what have you- So, yeah... 41:47 what have you brought to it yourself? So I, there's a dish that I developed, um, it's called, it's a salted egg yolk scallop. Yeah. It's become, I think, one of the most beloved dish at our restaurants. It very simple. 42:04 The base is coconut, you know, which we use a lot in Mekong Delta. Most of the sauce we use are with coconut, and I use sis- fish sauce. 42:13 And I don't remember when I was a little kid, salted egg yolk was a thing until I become older. Yeah, so I think salted egg yolk, it just really trendy in Vietnam, like recently. Yeah. 42:29 So I use that ingredient to create the sauce. And the ingredient is super simple, you know. It's just like really good quality of scallop, grill it over charcoal, and really delicious sauce. And I use dưa món. 42:42 So dưa món is the pickles that we, um, we normally eat with bánh chưng, uh, which is a steamed rice cake that we wrap in banana leaf during Vietnamese New Year. 42:54 So that's, that's something that people love, you know, even Vietnamese people. And you actually see it in Vietnam, you know, like the salted egg yolk sauce. You, you see it- Yeah... 43:05 you know, in oc, the snail store in Saigon, you know? Yeah. I wanna ask about this thing behind you. Okay. [laughs] Can you explain what this- So this one-... 43:19 jar of green leaves in- One of my favorite thing to eat when I was in Vietnam is Cai chua. And, um, and um, and you know, it's like the tiny eggplants, the white tiny eggplants that my mom always fermented. 43:38 So we'd normally eat w- eat with mam tom, which is fermented, um, shrimp paste. So this one, that's why I wanna bring this one. You know, it's like normally 43:50 most of Vietnamese restaurant, they don't really serve it because it's such a labor-intense process. Uh, each of this batch, it take us, um... 43:59 It depends on the temperature, but it's, it normally take us seven day to 10 days. Wow, that's- Yeah, so that's why we have a lot of jars here, and we rotating. 44:08 Um, sometime we don't make it enough, or sometime, like, during wintertime, it too cold, and it take, like, two weeks. Wow. Yeah. 44:15 And so the, it's have a very crunchy texture, and when you eat it, you can eat w- in our restaurant we use it for our ferm- uh, uh, the rice roll tower. Hmm. 44:28 That, you know, you can wrap everything up with grilled pork cheek over charcoal and dip in fermented, um, fish sauce. And we also use it inside our banh mi. Yeah. So this is, it's mustard greens- Yes... 44:41 and salt, and anything else? Exci- And thyme. And thyme. [laughs] Yeah. So but, and you have a lot of fermented things. You have the fermented hot sauce. Yeah. 44:50 Uh, I don't think people know how much pickling and fermenting there is in Vietnamese food. There's- Yes... a lot. Salt pickles, and vinegar pickles, and, like, everything. Yeah, so I think one of... I think you right. 45:05 You know, it's like a lot of people don't know that we use so much fermentation in our cuisine. It's starting from vegetable to, like, fish. You know? Mm-hmm. All different kind of, like, even, like, proteins. Mm-hmm. 45:17 Um, and even noodle. Like, traditional bun noodle. Bun is a Vietnamese vermicelli noodle. Traditional way, uh, when you make it, it take three, four day just, like, for one batch of bun. 45:30 But the final product is, like, it's very, like, bouncy. Like, sweet and a little bit sourness. Like, for example, bread, you have sourdough, right? 45:40 But in Vietnam, most of young people, they don't even think about it- Mm-hmm... because they don't know what the process is. Right. Um, but, but they love sourdough bread, which so trendy now. 45:53 It doesn't make any sense to me. Like, we have such a precious thing. Like, it's called bun- Yeah... and you can get it everywhere. It's like sourdough, kind of like noodle. 46:03 I love how much work goes into making bun, because at least... I don't know, may- you correct me if I'm wrong. When I... In, in Vietnam, bun is, like, the, the cheapest and the lowest- Yes. Yeah... 46:14 the lowest form of noodle. Yes. [laughs] Like, there was a, there was a restaurant that opened in Saigon probably 20 years ago called Bun. Yeah, yeah. And it was like fancy, [laughs] fancy version- Really... 46:25 of, you know, uh, like a lot of different kinds of bun-based dishes. Yeah. And everyone there was like, "What? This doesn't make sense." That would be like doing a, 46:34 I don't know, what would, what would the American version of that be? It would be, like, a tater tot restaurant or something- [laughs] No... where it's like, what's... A Wonder Bread restaurant. Yeah. 46:43 Something that's, like, the, the cheapest form. So it- it's, I, I had no idea that that much work went into just making it- It's so much work... day after day. Yeah, yeah. 46:51 Again, it's like when I went back to Nam Din to learn how to make bun, it's really, like, it's really opened my eyes. Yeah. And it's not only one type of noodle. 47:01 You know, bun is just, like, one type of noodle that we use fermented, uh, fermentation process. There's another called, um, banh, banh can bot loong- Hmm... which is cassava noodle. 47:15 Yeah, it's o- it very specific, you know? It's like, even, like, a lot of Vietnamese people, they don't know about this kind of noodle. Even though we call as noodle, but it's a square piece. Yeah. 47:28 So it make from, like, fresh cassav- cassava, like, you, after the fermentation process, you use the cassava powder at the bottom to make the noodle, and it take, like, day and days to make it. Wow. Yeah. 47:41 What dish does that go into? It's called... It's from Hue. Oh. It's called banh can bot loong. Okay. Yeah. So banh can is like tapioca, normally tapioca f- um, you know, flour. Yeah. 47:52 Um, but this one, they combine between tapioca flour and then the cassava. Okay. Like, fresh cassava. Yeah. And, uh, but is that like a, a stir-fried noodle dish? Is that a noodle soup? No, no, it's a noodle soup. 48:04 It's a noodle soup. Yeah. There's, there's too many noodle soups in Vietnam. Yes. I, I, I mean- Yeah... I'm always learning about new ones. It's kind of, it's kinda crazy. 48:13 Like, even me, I don't know about this dish- Oh... until, like, last year when I went to Hue and really stayed there. Yeah. 48:20 I- when I did the research for banh mi in Hue, uh, because banh mi in Hue, it's very different from, like, other type of banh mi in the rest of the country. [laughs] It's just, like, so unique. Oh. 48:33 So I, I went there and learn- What's different? It's smaller. The texture one, so different. The flavor is very different. It's like I went to, 48:41 I, I went to a very old shop in Hue, banh mi shop in Hue, and I learned from the master. You know, he's like, you know, it's like, like it's just, like, everything just so casual, you know? 48:55 It's, like, nothing fancy, like, we don't wear, like, chef jackets or anything like that. But I went there and learned his technique. 49:02 And the banh mi is just, like, very thin, but when you bite into it, it's not, like, crispy, but it in between of, like, crunchy and softness. So it's, it, like, this kind of texture, I never had it before. 49:15 And it takes a lot of bread, like, to- Wow... the past, like, three, four years. Yeah, so it's very different and very unique. That's so cool. Yeah. Um, 49:25 you do so much work here to make the bread, to ferment everything, so many things made from scratch. It's really intense. How, how, how do you have the energy to do that? How do you keep 49:38 doing this [laughs] day after day, week after week? I think it's, it's like, without love, you know, I don't think you could do it, because we don't... I, myself, particularly myself, I don't do it for money. 49:54 I don't do it for, you know... And if, if I don't really, um, if I don't really love Vietnamese food, Vietnamese culture, then I wouldn't spend extra time to do, you know, like, all these thing. 50:12 I even sleep at the restaurant so many times, and I, I just think that Vietnamese food is so beautiful, and a lot of people don't do it. 50:20 So it's like, I feel, sometime I feel such a heavy burden that that's the burden I put on myself, you know? 50:29 Just really, I hope that people, when people come to my restaurant, they really experience Vietnamese, Vietnamese food, you know, the way it is. And as a chef, I, I still think I'm a very young chef, and I... 50:42 That's why I keep learning, you know? Going back to Vietnam, go to Europe, you know, go to Japan, you know. I, I do that every single year, just really learn something. Are there 50:54 more Vietnamese dishes or restaurant styles, concepts that you, you want to bring to New York? I mean, there's so many. Um, I don't wanna say it just yet. 51:07 [laughs] So I will keep it, but we open up a new loca- um, the new concept next year, yeah. Okay. [laughs] Yeah. I, I just don't wanna... I, I, I'm in the process of R&D now, and I will... 51:22 I mean, I, I did a trip to Europe recently. I will go, you know, to different states in America, but I also, like, planning to go back to Vietnam multiple time to really, you know, just, like... 51:34 I know all of those dishes, and I taste it before, but I just wanna have opportunity to learn from the master, you know? Are there any, 51:45 uh, chefs or restaurants in Vietnam that you're really looking forward to going back to? Any people? I don't really have any, like, chef or restaurant in Vietnam, but I always go to different vendors, you know? 51:59 They just, like, casually on the street or in arlo, you know. Um, they have been doing it for generation after generations, and that's my teacher. Do you have a first dish that you eat when you get off the plane? 52:15 Is there one thing that you're like, "Okay, I need to have this, and then I can go and eat other things after it"? Yeah. 52:20 So I, I always love banh trang tron, which is the rice paper salad, that me and my sister, we always had it together during college. We, we were such... You know, we were poor kid, and you know, it's like... 52:33 So banh trang tron is just, like, fun memory ti- you know, fun memory for me and my sister. 52:39 So whenever I go back to Vietnam, every single time, the first thing I eat would be banh trang tron and then sugarcane juice, yeah. That's delicious. Have you cooked for your sister? Yes. Yeah. What does she think? 52:52 I mean, my family have a mixed [laughs] opinion about my cooking. Like, my family is super critical. [laughs] Even though I'm kind of like a chef here, and they don't care. They say whatever. 53:06 [laughs] But my dad, I got approved from my dad. So, uh, the banh xeo. 53:13 My, my mom, when my family went bankrupt, my mom opened a small vendor that sell banh xeo, which is a Vietnamese turmeric pancakes, and banh mi vendor. 53:24 So I finally went back to Vietnam and make banh xeo for my parents, and they, they all loved it. So [laughs] it's like- Well, congratulations. [laughs] Thank you. Yeah. Do you... Are you... 53:37 Do you prefer bigger banh xeo or smaller? I mean, I, I love both. The, there's a beauty of, like, different banh xeo, you know, in Vietnam. The central... 53:49 So in, um, in central Vietnam, there's a fishing village, um, in... Yeah, so they, they actually catch, like, very fresh fish, and they put it on top of the banh xeo, the, the smaller version of banh xeo. 54:02 So it's, like, super fresh, you know. It's like, probably a lot of people don't know about this version of banh xeo. Yeah. Yeah, I've never, I've never seen that. It is super delicious, super fresh. 54:11 Um, and I also love the banh xeo in, you know, it's like Mekong Delta, which is the Mekong Delta. Mm. It's, like, very light and crispy. Yeah, so I, I love both. I'm hungry. Yeah. 54:23 Maybe that could be, uh, your next restaurant, just all banh xeo, like, regional- Yeah... regional crepes. That would be fun. Yeah. 54:31 Or, you know, you don't have to answer this, but I would love you to do a snail restaurant. [laughs] Uh, you have those two great grilled seafood dishes on the menu, uh, the grilled oysters, which are great- Yeah... 54:43 and the, the grilled scallop with the salted egg sauce. There's so many, yeah, so many concept that we, we're exploring. Yeah, and it, uh, snail, it, it's one of the concept that we, we thinking, for sure. Yeah. 54:56 [laughs] All right, if you do it, I'm gonna take credit. [laughs] Yes. [laughs] [upbeat music] Okay, that's it for Shut Up and Eat. 55:07 Be sure to subscribe to the podcast and check out our newsletter and killer merch at shutupandeat.com. That's Shut Up and Eat, not Shut Up and Eat. This episode was edited and produced by Matt Herrero at H-Industries. 55:22 Our executive producer is Peter Chang. Graphic design by Matt Timbs, and our theme song is Birthday Cake by Chipo Matso. Okay, till next time, shut up and eat, everybody. No, you shut up and eat. No, you shut up and eat. 55:36 Okay, thanks. I will. My love is sweet.